Race, Identity, and Tech in America

Grantley Martelly 0:09

Welcome to Above the Noise , a podcast at the intersection of faith , race and reconciliation , and I'm your host , Grantley Martelly . My guest today is Ijeoma Oluo , a mom , writer, and speaker on race and identity in America . She is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, "So You Want to Talk About Race , a book that I highly recommend and which we'll be talking about in this episode , and , most recently , "Mediocre the dangerous legacy of white male America . Among her many awards , Ijeoma was named to the 2021 Times 100 next list and has twice been named to the Route 100 .

Grantley Martelly 0:59

I'm excited about our conversation today . I had the privilege of meeting Ijeoma and getting to know her a little bit , and you will enjoy this conversation . It will be very enlightening in its two parts . I encourage you to enjoy it , to share it with your friends , because it will really help us become rooted in these conversations that we have been talking about faith , race, and reconciliation and get us a better understanding of what these terms mean and how to apply them in our daily conversations . So , Ijeoma , welcome to the Above The Noise podcast this morning . It is my pleasure to have you here . I am excited that I actually get to talk to you in person . I've heard you speak and read your books , but talking to you in person to me is exciting . I know my listeners are going to be excited to hear what you have to say because I've started promoting this episode already . So thank you for joining me . I know you're very busy and I appreciate it .

Ijeoma Oluo 2:01

Thank you , it's a real pleasure .

Grantley Martelly 2:03

Thank you . So let's begin by just telling our audience who you are , where you were born , how you grew up and those early years of your life before you became a professional .

Ijeoma Oluo 2:16

Sure , yeah , I'm Ijeoma Oluo and I am a writer and speaker on the issues of race and identity in America , and I was born in Denton , Texas . My father was Nigerian , came here for school and my mother is a white lady from Kansas . My brother likes to say we're this close to having the Obama story , but neither of us ended up becoming president and shortly after my brother was born and I was around two years old , we moved to the Seattle area . My father went back to Nigeria during the coup in 1982 and stayed there until he died , and I was raised in the Seattle area with my brother and then later my sister with my mom , and the family we had here was my grandparents and a few cousins , and we grew up in a majority white area .

Ijeoma Oluo 3:23

Seattle is in general , but we grew up in the north end , which is even more so a very working class area , and we were incredibly poor . We didn't have electricity for a lot of our childhood , didn't have a phone for most of the childhood ate at soup kitchens . We're homeless occasionally . We kind of grew up with this general sense of otherness a lot and then being the only black person in pretty much every classroom I was in and usually being the poorest of my classmates , made me very observant . You have to become really , really observant because you're being treated differently and the rules are different for you and no one says anything in a place like Seattle . And so I kind of grew up having to really watch and see what was unspoken . And it also made me very outspoken because I had to say things that other people weren't saying , if I was going to get to the bottom of things and if I was going to be able to survive . And so I was known from a young age as the person that would always say something .

Ijeoma Oluo 4:41

But I loved school . I didn't love my peers , I didn't have very many friends . I loved learning and so I went to Running Start in middle school I mean , sorry , in high school , my junior and senior year and that was a program that allowed you to take free college classes at the local community colleges and not to actually when academia and my path , I think , kind of started to open up for me . I was taking a class in my high school proper on European History . At the same time, I was taking a class in American Government at the college and I was immediately able to see patterns . I was like , wait a minute , we're talking about something that happened in European history 150 years earlier and I'm seeing the exact same thing happening in my American Government class now and I started to realize that people are very predictable , especially when it comes to systemic issues , and there's a lot of power in understanding . And we had been harmed a lot by not understanding and I just became fascinated . I had always been kind of politically minded , but that's where I started to recognize like there's real power in understanding how systems work and that these systems have been often weaponized against people and fell in love with that area of study around high school .

Ijeoma Oluo 6:01

Then , when I became an adult , I did not go straight to college . I had that neurodiverse I have ADHD burnout of graduation and was going to take a year off . And I took a year off and got pregnant and had my son when I was 20 . Then I went back to school at 25 . I packed my son up and moved to Bellingham and finished my degree in political science . That was actually a really beautiful time of my life , but my day-to-day life was about working and paying bills and not being as broke as I was as a kid and taking care of my family . I didn't start writing actually , until I was in my 30s . I worked in tech , like so many other people in the Seattle area do , and it absolutely paid my bills , and then I realized that I needed to try to give myself more than just survival in the world , and that's really when I started writing .

Grantley Martelly 7:08

Yeah , so that's good . I appreciate the history and the story there . In your story about working in tech , I think in your book, So You Want To Talk about RAce" and also in the last time that I was in the audience hearing you speak , you talked about some experiences while working in technology that were eye-opening to you or things that caused you to realize that your life was going to go in a different direction . You remember any of those ? You mind talking about one or two of those experiences ?

Ijeoma Oluo 7:42

Oh sure , I mean . I think that we don't talk about how toxic tech really can be if you aren't a white man . It's a space where we built in the image of white men and I entered into this space really with a mind that adapted well to the work and immediately encountered a lot of real systemic barriers . You know , I'm a six-foot-tall fat black woman and I was immediately coded as mean and angry , too opinionated , and worked in spaces where people absolutely loved what I had to say because it was right , but also didn't want me to say it , and I would always be pulled in for planning and never for presentation . It was always that mix of people felt , quote unquote , intimidated by me and were always surprised to find out that I was funny or lighthearted or kind , cooperative , all of these things . They were always surprised by that and time and time again I found that I was either exceptionalized and weaponized against other black employees or every bit of progress I made it was assumed it was some sort of like a affirmative action program , even though I always had the work to back up every promotion I fought for .

Ijeoma Oluo 9:06

You know , I was always giving 150% .

Ijeoma Oluo 9:09

I was always the best performer in every space I was in and , being a black woman , of course I faced regular sexual harassment in these spaces as well and the kind of hypersexualization of black women and lack of respect for my bodily autonomy . I've had managers touch my hair in meetings and ask if it was real . I've had people ask me , make really horrific assumptions about my parenting , about my parentage , and I'll assume that my father was one of those quote unquote stereotypical black fathers who vanished and that's when you know went back to his home country because of a war and died . It was a regular reminder I wasn't safe and I would start to feel comfortable and then something would pop up and it wouldn't be safe and I was constantly having to monitor myself , monitor how people received me , monitor my reputation and walk that line between not wanting to create more stress and pain for myself and having to defend myself from things that may well end up getting out of control and harming my ability to do the work I wanted to do and to feed my family .

Grantley Martelly 10:29

It sounds so familiar . I mean , you're talking about that . I have pictures running through my mind about similar experiences and conversations . And just when you think you're comfortable , something pops up that says , ah , you're just being tolerated here , you know , necessarily belong here , right ? My guest today is Ijeoma Oluo , the author of Mediocre: The Dangerous Legacy of White Male America , and the one that we're talking about today , the New York Times bestseller, So You Want To Talk About Race . I wanna tell you about my friend Darren Porter and his great team at PerformanceAudio . com .

Grantley Martelly 11:26

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Black Women

Grantley Martelly 12:28

You said something also that I read in the book that I thought was really interesting that black women are treated differently in society and even treated more different by other black people than black men . And could you talk a little bit more about that , because I thought that was really interesting , how you came to that realization and how it affected how you had to shift , how you moved through society because you were a black woman ?

Ijeoma Oluo 12:58

Yeah , I would say there are a few people in our society less cared for and less protected than black women , and that was something that was always really difficult for me because , as trying to navigate the world , we are absolutely always expected to build solidarity with all black people and to support black men , and I would gladly do so . But time and time again in my professional life and honestly now even in my activism work , I was repeatedly thrown under the bus by black men . If it would benefit them or ingratiate them to white supremacy , and we would see that . We would see how my progress was considered threatening If I tried to address gender issues . It was considered distraction from talking about how black people were being treated . I was told regularly , even in workplaces and still in my activism work , that the priority is always about how black men are being treated .

Ijeoma Oluo 14:03

But the truth is that we suffer every bit as much of racism in our day-to-day lives . The violence looks different , right , the violence of the state comes upon us looks different , but we are also often the ones left to hold everything together . Right , when we talk about what's happening in our communities , we're talking about . Everyone talks about how black women are most likely to be college educated . But when you talk about what that means , right ? ? ? Taking on that immense amount of debt , being less likely to have family resources , being more likely to be caring for multiple family members , and you have to go to college , you have no choice because you have to be able to do these things we're not necessarily talking about privilege , right ?

Ijeoma Oluo 14:49

We're talking about this unequal burden that black women often hold and are never appreciated for , and it's frustrating to feel like no one has your back . You have to hope that another black woman who is just as stressed and just as strained as you are can come together with you and we're like , we're so tired , and it's just something I've encountered so many times and I'm always shocked by people who I know are so well read . And I'll be talking to a black man I've known for years and he'll say well , you know what ? I don't really worry about black women the way I worry about black men , but we're dying . We're dying in childbirth , we are being rapidly discriminated against at work , we're being sexually assaulted , we are suffering from fibroids and all these other health issues .

Grantley Martelly 15:45

Having to raise your children and other people's children .

Ijeoma Oluo 15:48

Exactly , it is our sons that we send out into the world and worry about and that we have to care for . We are doing all of these things while also being at the forefront of racial justice theory , at the forefront of movement work . You know , caregiving for our elders , you don't worry about us .

Grantley Martelly 16:12

Yeah , I have come to that . I was raised by a single mom . There were eight of us , five sisters and two brothers , many aunts and nieces . I've got a very strong , powerful wife . I've got a very strong , powerful daughter . You remind me of her in many ways Very outspoken , very brilliant , very articulate , and I've come to really appreciate and start promoting the power of what I call strong black women . Strong black women , and I tell many people , much of our society today would not be intact as many of the struggles we have , it would not be as good as it is if it was not for the power and the strength of strong black women holding it together .

Ijeoma Oluo 17:01

But we would love to not have to be .

Grantley Martelly 17:05

I really want to say that that's what you were saying in the book , right ? Yeah , you know I have to do that , right , exactly , you know because there is always a sacrifice .

Ijeoma Oluo 17:13

We have the same capacity as anyone else , right ? So often it's our own care , our mental health , right ? Our own joy . So many black women I know don't even know what their talents are that give them joy , because everything they do has been dictated by this . And you know , I'm fortunate right now to be partnered with someone who just creates space for me to rest and recoup , right , who is so dedicated to my support . But this is the first time in my life I've ever had that and what that has meant for me . Like I can actually go to therapy now , I can actually work on my mental health , I can work on my healing , I can develop my skills and my hobbies in a way that I have never been able to do in my life , because I have this little bit of safety , this little bit of care where I can be soft and I can cry and I can be silly and I can do all of these things .

Ijeoma Oluo 18:05

But often we are denied and so I really want people to recognize , like , if you appreciate what black women do , you also have to appreciate who they are and you have to say what do I owe ? What is the obligation of that , because I do feel like often people want to say black women are good at it , so let's just keep them doing it . And what would all this talent be ? You know , what would this talent be if it didn't have to constantly go into other people and correcting other people's mistakes ? What would it be if we got to go into , you know , if we got to invest it in ourselves and our joy ? You know , I think that would be far more beneficial to society . In all honesty .

Grantley Martelly 19:21

That's great . I would love to continue this topic , but I want to get us to . So you came to this realization from your working in tech that you needed to do something different . You need to make a change in life , a different trajectory . Tell us about that and how you made that change and how you came to be doing what you're doing currently .

Ijeoma Oluo 19:39

Yeah , it was really organic . Honestly , it was unexpected for me . I was working in tech and actually just got a huge promotion I had worked really hard for , and then Trayvon Martin was murdered and that really was a turning point for me . I was absolutely devastated . There's so many people in our community were , as a mom , as a sister , as a black person I was crying every day . I was just . It gutted me and I worked in this space .

Ijeoma Oluo 20:14

I was looking around at this thing that was impacting so much of my life and there was no reaction from the people around me . You're like , oh yeah , that's sad , you know , and I was like we need to talk about this , because I'm looking at this and seeing how unsafe my children are , how unsafe my brother is , how unsafe I am in this world , and people were getting upset with me for saying we need to talk about this , and it was so confusing for me . In a way , I had known , on one level , of course , what it means to navigate white spaces , but Seattle really loves to gaslight you by saying we vote this particular way . We all think these particular things and , watching how hostile this island was , I became really desperate . Really desperate to find real connection and to know that I actually had community , to know that there were people in my life invested in all of our safety . And I remember begging people like , can we just have this conversation ? And honestly , only two people in my life were willing to at the time and they are still friends to this day . I will love them till the day that I die .

Ijeoma Oluo 21:24

And so I started writing . I was like , ok , if I can't find people here and then we want to have this conversation , I'm going to start writing . And so I started writing on my Facebook page . I had a little food blog and I started writing in there and it was really me pouring out my pain and pouring out this fear and desperately trying to make a connection . It wasn't me going . I'm a writer now and what ended up happening is , I think , because it was so authentic , it was so real , because I wasn't trying to actually build a thing . People connected immediately to how honest I was being , and so I started hearing from people . And then I started hearing from newspapers . I started hearing from New York Times saying can we repost these tweets that you put out ? And I was like , what do you mean ?

Ijeoma Oluo 22:12

You know , I had no idea . Then people started asking me to just write my thoughts for particular websites , so I started gingerly doing that and it was really scary , but I just needed to talk . Then the real shift where I knew I had to leave was I was working in this particular space that was very toxic . I was the only woman in my department and I was the only black person in my department . Every day I was entering this very misogynistic space . It was just pulling me apart and it was a space that didn't require much of my intellect . Then I had this space outside of work where I was talking honestly and having these really open conversations , more open than I've ever had in my life . What I learned was you can't open up that part of you and then spend 10 hours a day in a space where you have to shut it back down . I was suddenly feeling the things I had been putting away . People would say things to me that were racist or sexist and I was like I can't believe . I'm here , I just quit , and I didn't have a plan . I didn't have a job lined up . I had just bought a house , I think six months earlier , and being the first person in my family to own a home . I just couldn't do it .

Ijeoma Oluo 23:33

One day and I decided to trust . I had spent a whole lifetime learning how to survive and I just had to trust I could . I did and it was scary at first . I almost lost my house . I did lose my car , that did get repossessed , and I was just scrambling , hustling , writing essay after essay after essay for $100 bucks here , $50 bucks here , and I built an audience to the point where I got my book deal . When I got my book deal , I paid four months of back mortgage payment . I paid cash for a very inexpensive car so I could get around , and the rest is history . I really dedicated myself . I was like I have to make this work , I don't want to go back to my cubicle . I did and it was more successful than I ever could have dreamed and it has been an amazing adventure .

Grantley Martelly 24:36

How did you arrive at the decision to write the book ? So you want to talk about risk . I know you talk a little bit about your interaction with your mom because , wow , how did you come to that point that that's the topic you wanted to write on the first time .

Ijeoma Oluo 24:53

Yeah , it actually wasn't the topic I wanted to write on at first and it was actually a suggestion of my agent . Because when my agent approached me and said , have you ever thought of writing a book , I said no . Like I said I do have ADHD , right , so writing essays works great for me . I'm fired up a lot , something that's all we can think about . I'm going to write about it quickly , publish , done .

Ijeoma Oluo 25:16

A book is a very different beast . You're talking multiple years of being dedicated to the same thing . That's an ADHD nightmare , and so I didn't ever consider writing a book , at least not in my adult life . As I was thinking about it , she said you know , I think you should write something that's more of like a guide around race . You know , she said , I'm such a huge fan of your work

Exploring Racism and Promoting Understanding

Ijeoma Oluo 25:39

. I think you explain things in a way that other people can really understand and in a way that's unique . And I was like , oh , let me think about it . And so once it was kind of in my brain , what I started noticing first of all was that I was still being asked to write basically the same essay . It's over and over , Over and over . Something would happen related to race . Can you write about this and I'm like , but you guys , this is basically the same thing that happened last week when I was writing .

Ijeoma Oluo 26:03

Like just different geography , Exactly exactly Different actors , same script , you know . And it was like you can tell that even the people asking me to write didn't have that foundational understanding of the systems at play . And I didn't want to be generating outrage , I wanted people to understand so that we could do something . And then I noticed how often people would email me privately to admit that they just didn't have this basic understanding , you know , and they would be like , please don't tell anyone .

Ijeoma Oluo 26:37

But do you know what privilege really means ? Cause I don't , you know , and it was obvious to me that people were having these conversations , these arguments that were stopping us from actually coming up with solutions and no one really knew what they were talking about and no one really knew how to get past go . And I was like , okay , you know what ? So this is actually maybe something I could do , and maybe if I had this book that people could have , I wouldn't have to keep writing the same essay over and over again and maybe people could have these real conversations that get past the first initial sentences . And so I sat down and I tried to think what are the things that , what are the questions I'm getting all the time and what are the questions I wish I would get , and from that I kind of came up with the chapter outline for the book and started working my way through .

Grantley Martelly 27:26

Which is a series of small chapters , like writing essays , that you put all together . At the end it's got back to you how you thought right , I can be with this at a time . This and this and this yeah , each of them in that light , let's talk about a few of those things that people don't seem to understand right . Let's begin with racism . So what is racism ?

Ijeoma Oluo 27:50

So , and that is the fundamental question I'd say , especially right now , the definition of racism I work with is bias against people because of their racial identity , skin color features . That is backed up by systems of power , and the reason why I add that and that's the part that people often don't like is because we're talking about the ways in which it impacts people's lives . So when we're just talking about people who have bias against people because of their racial identity , we're talking about feelings , right . So we're talking about oh , you made me sad , oh , you don't like me .

Ijeoma Oluo 28:25

Okay , you know what that might ruin your afternoon . It's not gonna ruin your life . When we're talking about systems of power , we're talking about a fear of you because your skin color has been instilled in me and now I can call the police and you might die , right , and that is a very different thing , and so the reason , the thing that I always tell people if they have trouble with sticking to this definition , is what is the problem you're trying to solve ? Are you trying to solve hurt feelings or are you trying to save lives ? Because if you're trying to save lives , then we need to focus on these systemically generated and supported biases .

Grantley Martelly 29:04

That's part one of my conversation with Ijeoma . Join us next time as we continue discussions on what is racism , what is intersectionality , what is privilege and other topics . Conversations are much more productive and we can become more authentic when we understand the terms of what we're discussing and things that we battle around many times , and each person may be coming at it from a different direction . Ijeoma does a masterful job in helping us do that by providing a beautifully organized manual for anyone who wants to address problems on race and racism . It's a discussion worth having . You can reach Ijeoma at Ijeoma@ IjeomaOluo . com , or you can send us an email to abovethenoise24@ gmail . com . Remember to subscribe and leave us a rating . Ratings are very important to helping our podcasts succeed in the podcast universe and helping it become known to other people . Email us your comments at abovethenoise24@gmail . com, abovethenoise24@gmail . com , and follow us on Instagram and Facebook at abovethenoise24 . Thank you for listening . Please share this episode with a friend .